2012/02/26

More on the Dancemaster Pro


More on the Dancemaster Pro 120226

Following the posting of the note on 'Working with the DanceMaster' Bryndyn Burton, the creator of  the DM, and I had a useful conversation. He has agreed to let me share it with you minus a couple of items ... I did correct my terrible typos

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[08:22] Bryndyn Burton: Hello Nottoo. Disappointed to see your review :-( I do not know what your sync problems were, but I've had people give performances with perfect sync, even under laggy conditions. You could also improve your situation by inserting sync commands immediately after a coordinated (multi-position/multi-animation) animation change, which should help that issue. As far as the dancing not matching up with the music over time... There is no system that can guarantee consistent time performance over long periods of time under laggy conditions. That said, losing 25 seconds of time over the course of a 4 minute song is not reasonable, and I suspect some other issue is at work here.
[08:23] Bryndyn Burton: But in any event, my apologies that it did not work to your satisfaction.
[08:24] Nottoo Wise: hi bryndyn xxx
[08:24] Nottoo Wise: there were nine performances
[08:24] Nottoo Wise: by different groups
[08:24] Nottoo Wise: using different systems
[08:25] Nottoo Wise: what i remember is
[08:25] Nottoo Wise: 1 group used only a huddles HUD
[08:25] Nottoo Wise: another used two synchronized huddles huds and the DB system
[08:25] Nottoo Wise: another used the TIS Pro system
[08:25] Nottoo Wise: another the barre hud
[08:25] Nottoo Wise: another the mldu5
[08:26] Nottoo Wise: the only other group that showed probs was the tis pro
[08:26] Nottoo Wise: and that may have been due to not putting the dances in the cache
[08:26] Nottoo Wise: if there is a solution to the syncing i would liove it
[08:26] Nottoo Wise: i had put a sync command in the script
[08:26] Nottoo Wise: but in practice it caused the avatars to stop briefly
[08:27] Nottoo Wise: and i felt that was not acceptable
[08:28] Nottoo Wise: the cause of the loss of time is not clear to me
[08:28] Nottoo Wise: riddle and i ran thru the performance about an hour before the show
[08:28] Nottoo Wise: with one person there in addition to us
[08:28] Nottoo Wise: and it worked perfectly
[08:28] Nottoo Wise: but in the show
[08:28] Nottoo Wise: wow
[08:28] Nottoo Wise: it was awful
[08:29] Nottoo Wise: if u want to add ur comments to my note plz do so
[08:29] Nottoo Wise: i am interested only in a products that aid dancing and i hope there is a solution
[08:31] Bryndyn Burton: My only comment is that you can't judge this from a single laggy performance. Others have worked with this system under laggy conditions (check with ___ ___ at the ___, for example) and had no problems at all. [NOTE - name removed]
[08:31] Nottoo Wise: i would like to see it work properly in lag
[08:32] Nottoo Wise: if there is a solution i will try it
[08:32] Bryndyn Burton: Even in laggy situations, the situation can fluctuate dramatically over short periods of time as people TP in and out.
[08:32] Nottoo Wise: and let people know
[08:32] Bryndyn Burton: Did you verify the problem that you saw was actually seen by others?
[08:32] Nottoo Wise: the alternatives used during the show did not show lag or almost none
[08:33] Nottoo Wise: and previous shows i have done with as many or more people i did without lag
[08:33] Nottoo Wise: so if there is something i am not doing right
[08:33] Nottoo Wise: i want to learn it
[08:33] Nottoo Wise: and correct it
[08:33] Nottoo Wise: then let people know
[08:33] Nottoo Wise: yes
[08:33] Nottoo Wise: riddle saw it too
[08:33] Nottoo Wise: and others commented on it
[08:34] Bryndyn Burton: OK, so that verifies that it was a sim-side issue, not related to your local client/network.
[08:34] Nottoo Wise: i will contact ___ and see his next performance using it if i can
[08:34] Nottoo Wise: correct
[08:35] Nottoo Wise: i also have a pretty good internet connection and a fast processor and graphics card
[08:36] Bryndyn Burton: Well.... the only way to *verify* there is actually a problem is either to do a controlled experiment in a known laggy situation, or to collect statistics of problems over time. Yours is the only report I have of problems dealing with lag.
[08:37] Nottoo Wise: i agree that a controlled experiment is the answer
[08:37] Nottoo Wise: but its not so easy to do
[08:37] Nottoo Wise: i have thought about making the same dance with several different systems
[08:37] Bryndyn Burton: No, it requires many people to do it properly.
[08:37] Nottoo Wise: and seeing how they vary with the same number of audience members
[08:38] Nottoo Wise: i will contact __ and see if he can show me what he has done
[08:39] Nottoo Wise: may i add this conversation to the blog?
[08:39] Bryndyn Burton: It's not just the number of audience members, but what degree of scripted attachments they are wearing.
[08:39] Nottoo Wise: of course
[08:40] Nottoo Wise: one of the performers had complained about the script demand on the server earlier in the show
[08:40] Nottoo Wise: when i used the region owner tools i could not see it
[08:40] Bryndyn Burton: Yes. Many performances request (some even require) attendees to remove heavily scripted stuff.
[08:41] Nottoo Wise: yes i know but these r dances who live and breathe with their dance equipment on
[08:41] Nottoo Wise: removing it is like being naked
[08:42] Nottoo Wise: may i add this conversation to the blog?
[08:42] Nottoo Wise: i would like people to hear ur comments as well as mine
[08:43] Bryndyn Burton: hmmm.... yes, although I would remove references to ___ and the ___, he didn't volunteer to get dragged into this discussion.
[08:43] Nottoo Wise: ok i will remove his name and put ___

[08:43] Bryndyn Burton: My *official* response is two-fold:
[08:45] Bryndyn Burton: 1) I'm very sorry (mortified is probably close to the truth) that you experienced problems with the system during performance. Yours are the first reported lag-related issues I have received.
[08:47] Bryndyn Burton: 2) I will be happy to work with you to address those problems that are repeatedly observable, and to fix them. That said, there is no system that can guarantee split-second timing/synchronziation of music with multiple concurrent animations under all lag conditions in SL.
[08:47] Nottoo Wise: ty bryndyn
[08:47] Nottoo Wise: i know its not fun to have criticism of ur hard work in a public forum
[08:48] Nottoo Wise: i do that becasue i feel i should tell people what i experience and at the same time try to be always fair
[08:48] Nottoo Wise: i want systems that work and will tell what i know and listen to what others say
[08:48] Nottoo Wise: but i must verify
[08:49] Nottoo Wise: so
[08:49] Nottoo Wise: may i put the conversation on the blog removing the name u requested?
[08:49] Bryndyn Burton: Yes, and remove the ___ as well.
[08:49] Nottoo Wise: of course
[08:50] Nottoo Wise: i will be happy to try to set up a perfomance of the dance riddle and i did
[08:50] Nottoo Wise: with some type of controlled experiement
[08:50] Nottoo Wise: i can invite DQ members to participate
[08:50] Nottoo Wise: there r many who want workable systems and would volunteer and hour or two to help solve the issues
[08:51] Nottoo Wise: i will be away from SL a lot over the next month
[08:51] Nottoo Wise: or two
[08:51] Nottoo Wise: but when i return i would be happy to set up something
[08:52] Bryndyn Burton: Thanks. Unfortunately, your negative review is posted on DQ very prominently in the meantime...
[08:52] Nottoo Wise: thats why i want to put this conversation on the blog
[08:52] Nottoo Wise: so people know u do not agree
[08:52] Nottoo Wise: and we r trying to figure it out
[08:53] Nottoo Wise: i cannot recommend it based on what i know now
[08:53] Nottoo Wise: but if it is an error i made i will correct it
[08:53] Nottoo Wise: if the DM needs improvement
[08:53] Nottoo Wise: u can work on it
[08:53] Bryndyn Burton: I can't even fairly say I "don't agree" Nottoo -- I simply don't have data besides your experience to indicate there is a problem.
[08:53] Nottoo Wise: eventually we both have something that works or doesnt
[08:54] Nottoo Wise: i understand
[08:54] Nottoo Wise: thats one reason for us to do an experiment
[08:54] Nottoo Wise: to see what happens
[08:54] Nottoo Wise: i suggest that we set up the show
[08:54] Bryndyn Burton: And I have seen way too many funky things happen under laggy conditions to draw a conclusion from a single experience.
[08:55] Nottoo Wise: and add audeince members
[08:55] Nottoo Wise: maybe 5 at a time
[08:55] Nottoo Wise: or start with like 40
[08:55] Nottoo Wise: and remove them
[08:55] Nottoo Wise: monitoring script times
[08:56] Bryndyn Burton: Difficult, though, to replicate... for example, everyone would have to clear cache and relog in between tests.
[08:56] Nottoo Wise: yes
[08:58] Nottoo Wise: ok i will contact ___ and learn from him
[08:58] Bryndyn Burton: Well, it would be an interesting experiment, certainly...
[08:58] Nottoo Wise: ty bryndyn xxx
[08:58] Nottoo Wise: think about it
[08:58] Nottoo Wise: and in late april we can give it a try
[08:59] Bryndyn Burton: Nottoo, if you are truly not satisfied with this system... I am more than happy to offer you a full refund.
[08:59] Nottoo Wise: hahahaah
[08:59] Nottoo Wise: no
[08:59] Nottoo Wise: the money is not improtant to me
[09:00] Nottoo Wise: finding what works and doesnt is important
[09:00] Nottoo Wise: i know im tough on u but if the system is really good
[09:00] Nottoo Wise: this will be ur best evidence
[09:00] Nottoo Wise: and u will have a lot of supporters
[09:00] Nottoo Wise: if it isnt
[09:00] Nottoo Wise: u have something to work on
[09:03] Nottoo Wise: bryndyn i have to say i felt really terrible after the show
[09:03] Nottoo Wise: i work hard on dancing and wanted to show something new and really spectacular
[09:04] Nottoo Wise: the DM in practice did it
[09:04] Nottoo Wise: although i can see much more beyond what i tried to do
[09:04] Nottoo Wise: that i could do now that i am more proficient
[09:04] Nottoo Wise: so the show results really made me upset
[09:04] Nottoo Wise: i want it to work
[09:05] Nottoo Wise: i also feel a respobnsibilty to the DQ members to say what i think
[09:05] Nottoo Wise: and why
[09:05] Nottoo Wise: so i slept on it
[09:05] Nottoo Wise: and then wrote what i did
[09:05] Bryndyn Burton: I'm not surprised you're upset, you invested a lot of work and the results came out crappy :-(
[09:06] Nottoo Wise: ok
[09:06] Bryndyn Burton: I would feel exactly the same way if I were in your situation. I'm *also* upset, but for different reasons. But being upset isn't going to solve whatever problems there are.
[09:06] Nottoo Wise: i think we have a plan to go forward
[09:07] Nottoo Wise: think about how to test the lag issue
[09:07] Nottoo Wise: i will make another sequence to do it if u want
[09:07] Nottoo Wise: i will make it using other systems too if that helps
[09:07] Nottoo Wise: i think we can get DQ members to help
[09:07] Nottoo Wise: so when i am back in april
[09:07] Nottoo Wise: we can give it a try
[09:08] Bryndyn Burton: Well, given that you have a sequence which was observed to have problems, it doesn't make sense to create another one yet and test it for lag issues. Let's start with the sequence we know already had at least one problem.
[09:08] Nottoo Wise: ok
[09:09] Nottoo Wise: i will add all this to the blog now
[09:09] Nottoo Wise: think about it
[09:09] Nottoo Wise: if u have ideas for how to test it
[09:09] Bryndyn Burton: That said, I will solicit from amongst my interest group and see if anyone has any lag-related issues they haven't reported to me.
[09:09] Nottoo Wise: i will be here until thursday
[09:09] Nottoo Wise: good idea
[09:09] Nottoo Wise: dance audiences r the toughest
[09:10] Nottoo Wise: toughest in terms of both script demands and expectations of quality performances
[09:10] Bryndyn Burton: Yes, no doubt of that...
[09:11] Nottoo Wise: ty xxx
[09:11] Nottoo Wise: c u later :-)

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